
-------- TML Message #1954 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1954
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 17:09:38 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: DEsigns from Scott Kellogg 12/4/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Attack Submarine TL8 "Los Angeles" Class
 
CraftID:  Attack Submarine, Type SSN TL8, MCr 196.88456
Hull:     (405/1013) Disp=450, Config=3AF, Armor=44C,
          Unload=5202.2718t, Load=5515t, Dived=6075t,
          SafeDepth=300m, CrushDepth=450m
Power:    (18/23) 344Mw Fission, Dur=2yrs
Loco:     (35/46) Single Screw, DiveTop=59Kph, DiveCruise=45kph,
          Surface=28kph
Commo:    Radio=Cont*2, Reg*4, RadioJamm=Cont*2, Laser=Reg*2
Sensors:  Active Audio*3, Passive Audio*30, Magnetic Sensor*3,
          Radiation Sensor*2, Environmental Sensor*3,
          AllWeatherRADAR=Reg*3, RDF*3, Image Enhancement*1,
          Passive IR*1, AdvActive IR*1, Headlight*1, Video
          Camera*1, RadarJamm=Reg*2
          ActObjScn=Diff    ActObjPin=Diff ActAudScn=Form 
          ActAudPin=Form PasAudScn=Form PasAudPin=Form
          PasEngScn=Diff
Off:      533mm Torpedo Tubes*4
                                Max            Chance
                Rnds  Warhead  Range    Speed    Hit%
Mk 48 Torpedo     18    300kg   25km   111kph     75%
Harpoon            6    227kg  148km  1040kph     80%
Tomahawk           4    454kg  460km   890kph     75%
 
The Mk 48 is a wire guided torpedo.
The Harpoon and Tomahawk use an intertial guidance system and a
terminal phase active homing radar.
 
Def:      DefDM=+4  Clusterguard Anechoic coating, Titanium
          Hull reduces magnetic signature
Control:  Computer=2fib*3, ElectronicLink=1853, Electronic Circuit
          Protect,
Accom:    Crew=133, SmallStateroom=22, Bunks=111, Env=Basic Env,
          Basic is, Extend is, AirLock*3
Other:    Fuel=.688Kl Fissiles, Mag=42Kl, 28 rds,
          Telescopicmasts*6, Electronic sensors mounted on masts,
          Cargo=262.1282Kl, ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Faint
 
Remarks:  The US Navy's big attack sub.  The above is the early
version, before the fitting of 12 verticle launch tubes for
Tomahawk missiles.
 
    For details on how I came up with this see the 'Alfa'
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via   Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1955 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1955
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 17:10:02 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/5/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Fleet Escort TL 15 "P.F. Sloan" Class
 
CraftID:  Fleet Escort Type FE, TL 15, MCr 4147.465
Hull:     (4500/11250) Disp=5000 Config=3SL, Armor=55G,
          Unload=77419.9, Load=83319
Power:    (513/683) 92192.4 Mw Fusion, Dur=(30 days @ reduced power
          {no lasers, no screens.} Full Power consumes 3 days of
          reduced fuel in 2 days.)
Loco:     (1143/1530), Manuver=6G, (338/450) Jump=4, Agility=0
          NOE=190, Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*2, Maser=System*2
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=250m*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-JAM=FarOrb*2
          ActObjScn=Rout,   ActObjPin=Rout,
          PasObjScn=Rout,   PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp,          PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=50
          Blasers=xx9 Missile=x09
          Batt        3           2
          Bear        3           2
Def:      DefDM=+9 Nuc Damper-1, Meson Scn-7
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=1, HoloHUD=17, HoloLink=17,
          Electronic Circuit Protect,
Accom:    Crew=55 (11*5)(Command=7, Bridge=7, Engineer=7, Gunner=22
          Flight=6, Mantain=3, Steward=1, Medic=1) Env=Basic Env,
          Basic is, Extend is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate,
          Subcraft=50 ton shuttles*3
Other:    Fuel=33470Kl, Mag=5050Kl, 507B-rds, B-rd=100missiles,
          Cargo=7.3Kl, Scoops, ObjSize=Lrg, EMlevel=Faint
 
Remarks:  "The 'P.F. Sloan' Class fleet escort is intended for
routine fleet security and support.  Fleet escorts are assigned in
quantity for local or system defense any time that several
squadrons or a fleet are present.  If it is remembered that Sloans
are lightly armed and armored, then their performance can be seen
as admirable, although they cannot withstand major engagements."-
Supplement 9:  Fighting Ships
 
    The High Guard edition had Agility=6, Nuclear Damper-2, Meson
Screens-2, Crew=40, But she cost only 3334.526
 
    Figured prominantly in GDW's Spinward Marches Campaign.
 
    There is an article w/ deck plans for the ship 'Arian Lisiani'
in Challenge 25, a P.F. Sloan Class escort.  Apparantly Arian
Lisiani was a Navy captain posthumusly awarded the S.E.H.. This
ripped up my own theory of naming them but I can still suggest a
few.  It might be fun to run across the...
 
ISS 8977 Barry McGuire
ISS 8978 Johnny Rivers
ISS 8979 Bob Dylan
ISS 8980 Lucky Wilbury
ISS 8981 Paul Simon
ISS 8982 Steven Stills
ISS 8983 Eve of Destruction
ISS 8984 Secret Agent Man
ISS 8985 Let Me Be
ISS 8986 Measure of Pleasure
ISS 8987 Can I Get To Know You Better?
 
Or perhaps they only are known by numbers... ("They've given you
a number, and taken away your name...") -P.F. Sloan
HeHeHeHeHeHeHe.
 
Original High Guard Design by Tim Brown, Frank Chadwick & Marc
Miller
Reprinted without permission            (Don't Shoot!)
 
Scott Kellogg
 
     via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1956 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1956
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 17:10:26 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: DEsigns from Scott Kellogg 12/6/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Dreadnaught TL 15, "Plankwell" Class
 
CraftID:  Dreadnaught Type BB, TL 15, MCr 171650
Hull:     (180000/450000) Disp=200000 Config=3SL, Armor=70G,
          Unload=3830934, Load=4019096.3
Power:    (26739/35652) 4812912 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 @ low power (no
          offensive wpns except BLasers, Agility=0) Combat power
          consumes 2 days reduced fuel per day)
Loco:     (37800/50400), Manuver=5G, (13500/18000) Jump=4,
          Agility=2 NOE=190, Cruise=750kph, Top=1000kph,
Commo:    Radio=System*10, Maser=System*10, Meson=System,
          RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, P-EMS=Interstel*3, A-EMS=FarOrb*3,
          Densitometer=1km*3, Neutrino=10kw*3, EMS-Jam=FarOrb*3
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Rout
Off:      HPoints=2000
          Meson Gun=T0x   Missile=x90     ParticleAcc=x70
          Batt        1           52                26
          Bear        1           80                40
          BLasers=x09 FGun=x06
          Batt        7           10
          Bear        10          15
Def:      DefDM=+9 Meson Scn-7, NucDamp-9,
          SCaster=x07 Repulsor=x09
          Batt        16          34
          Bear        25          50
Control:  Computer=9fib*3, LrgHoloDisp=20, HoloHUD=915,
          HoloLink=915, Electronic Circuit Protect
Accom:    Crew=689 3*200 (Command=94, Bridge=38, Engineer=323,
          Gunner=59, Flight=6, Maintain=141, Medic=5, Steward=23)
          Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is, Inertial Comp, Grav
          Plate, Subcraft=50 ton*3
Other:    Magazine=126100kl (487b-r) Battery round=2600 missiles,
          Fuel=1427324Kl, Scoops, Fuel Pure=72hr, Cargo=85.3Kl,
          ObjSize=Lrg, EMlevel=Mod
 
Remarks:  "The 'Plankwell' class dreadnaught is a more specialized
ship than the multi-task oriented 'Tigress' class.  Lacking the
extensive troop complement and the large fighter screen, the
'Plankwell' fulfills a more traditional battleship role, as the
center of a fleet of supporting ships.
 
    For decades, the Imperial Fleet in the Spinward Marches has
included at leas one BatRon of 'Plankwell' class ships, but
recently (1102), the last such squadron was rotated to the
strategic reserve in Corridor Sector.  Sentiment in Naval and
Sector circles runs high in favor of returning at least one BatRon
to the Marches.
 
    'Plankwell' class dreadnaughts are named for notable admirals
in the Imperial Navy.  The class name is taken from Grand Admiral
Olav hault-Plankwell, a sector admiral in the Spinward Marches who
rose to Grand Admiral of the Marches and lead to the defeat of the
Outworld Coalition during the First Frontier War (589 to 604). 
Following his victory in 604, he lead the fleet to the Core,
personally dispatched the Empress Jaqueline I, and took over the
government.  The result was the long, bloody Civil War; Olav was
the first of the Emperors of the Flag.  Although Olav is in
disrepute as an emperor, Grand Admiral Plankwell is still
remembered and honored for his achievements as a naval commander
in the First Frontier War; significantly his name has not been
assigned to any ship in the new 'Cleon' class of battleriders,
named for Emperors of the Imperium.
 
    Modular Construction:  'Plankwell' class dreadnaughts were
built using a modular construction technique which has proven cost
effective in commercial ship-building.  A central strut or keel
serves as a foundation, bracing the drives and aligning the spinal
mount, while all other parts of the ship are mounted to brackets
or strengthened points along it.  The technique allows separate
costruction of the various modules (such as quarters, electronics
areas, fuel tankage, and control areas), with a final mating of all
the variusl componants being performed only after the drives and
keel have been tested and accepted.  There was some initial concern
that the connecting points would be focusses for weakness in
battle, but the losses of two separate 'Plankwell's in combat has
been attributed by investigating boards to strategic
misdirection."  -Supplement 9:  Fighting Ships
 
Original High Guard Design by Tim Brown, Frank Chadwick & Marc
Miller
Reprinted without permission            (No Shoot!)
 
Scott Kellogg
 
     via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                            BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1957 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1957
Date: 6 Dec 90   11:32 EST
From: MKTESWX%GSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject:  Why Trade?  Or, the Tail Wagging the Dog.

Date: 6 December 1990, 10:50:59 EST
From: MKTESWX  at GSUVM1
To:   TRAVELLER at METOLIUS.WR.TEK.COM
Subject:  Why Trade?  Or, the Tail Wagging the Dog.

I'll try to keep this short (ha!).  I have a major problem with the people who
keep posting messages telling me why trade won't work in Traveller (or TDR) and
therefore should be dropped.  I assume you want to keep the "look and feel" of
Traveller (large interstellar governments, interstellar Travel, etc), and to do
 that you *MUST* have trade.

If interstellar trade in impractical, there is no economic connection between
systems unless one is a captive colony of the other, and there is very little
reason for a system to have these colonies (barring Religious Destiny).  There-
fore, no peaceful cooperation, no interstellar government, no passenger
traffic, etc.  Traveller is now set in ONE highly developed star system.  I
think we have a problem here ;).

Fortunately, we don't even have to change very much of MT to make interstellar
shipping a prosperous ongoing business.  We just have to look at the numbers
from a new direction.  First, let's look at the value (Man. Sug. Retail Pr) of
a "typical" cargo, say one ton of metalworking tools.  A metalworking tool kit
displaces 50l and sells for 1500Cr.  One tn=14 cub. m.=14000l.  Assume packing
materials are incredibly inefficient and occupy 40% of available volume, you
still have 8400l of cargo space = 168 kits = 252000Cr.  If shipping accounts
for only 5% of final cost (less than it does for most goods currently shipped
internationally) then a starship must be able to make a typical run for 12600
credits per ton of mean cargo carried.  I haven't generated typical expenses
for a free trader or far trader, but somehow I don't think this will be a
problem <g,d,&r>.

Obviously, the only problem with making trade in MT profitable is that the
cargo and freight rates have been grossly underestimated.  Perhaps noone ever
built a 14 cubic meter crate and filled it with trade goods?

BTW, the metalworking tool kit is NOT  particularly high pr/vol item.  Try
doing this with clothing, or vacc suits, or any other item on the equipment
lists.  Even bulk chemicals, such as Water Dyes.

The best news is that the ship design folks seem to be on the verge of deciding
that fuel consumption is far too high unless most of that is tossed out the
back as reaction mass for the maneuver drive.  This makes fuel cost for Jump
relatively small, increasing the relative profitability of interstellar trade
(not to mention making higher jump trading vessels more practical).

BTW, in case you haven't noticed, I'll be joining the Trade & Commerce SIG.

                               Everett

-------- TML Message #1958 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1958
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 14:16:11 PST
From: Vote For NoneOfTheAbove Write In Candidate  06-Dec-1990 1654 <baranski@meridn.enet.dec.COM>
Subject: trade

RE: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:51:38 -0500
 
"Unless the planet can not grow its own food because of its composition or
atmosphere but turns out to have a fortune if raw materials and is a handy
place to manufacture things."

My point is that a population will not be someplace where the bulk necessities
of life do not exist without a ***good*** reason.  Sure, a people may be on a
planet to exploit a resource, but they are more likely to be as small a number
as possible, existing on the native resources or synthetics, rather then
*expensively* haulling the necessities of life to the planet, just so that
people can live there.

In short, there has to be a good reason for people being where the necessities
of life are not.


-------- TML Message #1959 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1959
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 23:39:33 -0600
From: bonnevil@acc.stolaf.edu
Subject: Beyond and TL17 Worlds


Hi there!  I'm a new member of the TML, although I've played Traveller in
its various incarnations for several years.  In catching up on the 
discussions in this group, a couple of questions for y'all came to mind --

Some time ago, there was a discussion about the validity of the Paranoia
Press version of the Beyond map, and the question came up whether Digest
Group had plans in that direction or not.  I don't know either, but
someone who has a copy of the old Beyond map might be able to tell 
something.  In Trav.Digest #20, the Trojan Reach map shows a gov't called
the Florian League in subsector E of the sector which seems to stretch
into subsector H of the Beyond.  If this gov't doesn't exist on the old
PP map, then the Beyond has been totally wiped.  Despite the problems
this might cause (Garonne/Haldensleben was referred to in both GDW's
"Azhanti High Lightning" and as part of PP's "Vanguard Reaches" sector)
this might not be all bad.  The old Vanguard Reaches had _four_ TL17
worlds, three of which were Zhodani clients...in comparison to the single
one in the entire Imperium.

Which brings me to number two -- what's the deal with Sabmyqys?  From what
I understand, there once was an article or reference to them in JTAS, may
it rest in peace. :)  Would somebody *please* clue me in to some info
about them?  I'm very curious about this elusive race who somehow has 
managed to flaunt the apparent fluke of probability that keeps the Imperium
in general at TL16 and below.... :)

Thank you in advance,

- - --Steve
- - -----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yes, I'm sure the virushi is a very _nice_ being, but I don't think
it'd be a good idea to shake her hand...."

-------- TML Message #1960 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1960
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 08:09:44 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Thick Skinned



Here are some additional figures for thickness for spheres and squares.
All of these assume a density of 8 gms/cc.  Obviously the "superdense" will
be higher but that simply makes the skin thinner.  Units should be obvious
but in case they're not - weight in metric tons, tonnage is MT displacement,
radius/side and thickness are centimeters.

 Material multiplier =        1.25 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =     1650.00 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =       33.27
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =       26.81
  
 Material multiplier =        1.00 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =     1320.00 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =       26.86
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =       21.65
  
 Material multiplier =        0.44 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      580.80 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =       12.07
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        9.73
  
 Material multiplier =        0.35 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      462.00 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        9.64
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        7.77
  
 Material multiplier =        0.31 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      409.20 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        8.55
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        6.89
  
 Material multiplier =        0.26 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      343.20 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        7.18
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        5.79
  
 Material multiplier =        0.14 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =      184.80 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        3.88
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        3.13
  
 Material multiplier =        0.06 Armor multiplier    =       33.00
 Weight              =       79.20 Tonnage             =      100.00
 Spheres
 Radius    =      685.61           Thickness =        1.67
 Squares
 Side      =     1105.21           Thickness =        1.34
  
TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- TML Message #1961 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1961
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 09:38:58 -0500
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/7/90
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET (Stephen D Smith)


*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Darrian Fixed Wing Air/Raft TL13 "Saab" Class
 
CraftID:  Fixed Wing Air/Raft, TL13, Cr 548626
Hull:     (4/9) Disp=4(w/wings folded) Unload=2.47693, Load=2.7,
          Airframe=STOL Seaplane Simple
Power:    (2/2) .3312 Mw Fusion Dur=23/69
          (2/2) Storage Battery=7 seconds
Loco:     (2/2) Std Grav=3t, Min=75kph, Cruise=225kph, Top=300kph,
          NOE=170, Agility=4
Commo:    Radio=VDist*2
Sensors:  A-EMS=VDist, Headlight*2, ActObjScn=Dif, ActObjPin=Dif
Off/Def:  None
Control:  Computer=0*2, plus 0fib*1, HoloLink*2, Electronic Circuit
          Protection, Aircraft controls=Simple
Accom:    Crew=1 (Pilot) Passenger=1, Simple cockpit*2, Ejection
          Seat*2, Basic life support, sealed cockpit, inertial
          comps, Oxygen tank and mask as backup.
Other:    Fuel=601liters, Cargo=190Kg, an additional 300kg weight
          can be carried but this will adversely effect stall speed
          and emergency landings.
 
Remarks:  The 'Saab' is renouned as the safest air/raft in
operation.
 
    The Darrians have a strong distrust of Grav Vehicles.  When the
Maghiz hit their TL16 planet it fused all the grav modules in
existance.  Their current regulations concerning the building of
grav vehicles stipulates that they must be able to land in the
event of a total electronic systems failure.  The 'Saab' class
air/raft is designed to do just that under any circumstances.  It
has electronic circuit protection as well as a fiber optic backup
computer in case two standard computers fail.  In case of a total
computer and power failure, the craft has simple aircraft controls
to enable an emergency landing as well as a 7 seconds of battery
power.  The craft's unpowered landing speed being 21 meters per
second, it would take 1.9 seconds to bring her to a COMPLETE stop
leaving 5.1 seconds of power to bring her down in a vertical
landing.  Though this may not sound like much, but it really is
quite a long time from a pilot's point of view.  This, coupled with
the inertial compensators to cushion the blow, plus seat belts and
air bags, almost anyone can make a safe landing.
 
    The craft can land in water if necessary.  And as a last resort
when the craft can not land safely, the craft has two ejection
seats.
 
    Two radios are carried in addition to the standard battery
powered Emergency Location Transmitter.  Assuming the main
batteries have not been TOTALLY drained one can easily call for
assistance as the power requirements of the radios is negligable.
 
    Please note.  This is not a standard grav vehicle.  This is a
light aircraft.  It can take off and land like an Air/Raft, but it
can not be expected to fly in anything other than light winds, ie.
11 knots or 20kph.  Normal Air/Rafts would be designed to be
unaffected by air currents.  In contrast, the 'Saab' would catch
the winds like a kite.  Watch out for those take off and landings!
 
    Normally, the 'Saab' will take off and land vertically.  It
will rise clear of obstructions and then the wings unfold. 
Reversing the process for normal landings.  If on water, the wings
do not fold as they contain outriggers similar to the PBY Catalina.
 
    A military variant is available with two outboard wing
hardpoints for 462626 Cr.  Max external load=900kg,
Weight limit for vertical takeoff=490kg w/no internal cargo. 
Standard load=2 neutrino homing missiles.
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1962 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1962
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 10:57:27 EST
From: Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca>
Subject: Hull thickness & Pressure

This is loosely connected with the hull thickness debate:

Assuming an armour 40 hull, how much external pressure can the hull take?

A favourite technique of system defense boats is to sit in a gas giants
upper atmosphere, or underwater on the planet. Just how deep into
each medium can a typically armoured vessel go?

				-Dan

Dan Corrin, System Manager, Mechanical Engineering, UWO, London, Ontario
TML FTP site coordinator:  dan@engrg.uwo.ca   ...!watmath!julian!engrg!dan


-------- TML Message #1963 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1963
Date:     Fri, 7 Dec 90 14:03:23 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  GDW Blues

The fellow whose complaint T.L. Hayes imported from that other list certainly
had some valid points, as far as I am concerned.  I picked up a copy of 2nd
Ed Twilight:2000 in August and haven't had much of a chance to sit down and look
it over.  In fact, I haven't even tried to generate a character.  Until today...

Friends, you know I can deal with complicated systems.  However, the character
generator in 2nd Ed Twilight had me tearing my hair out in a few minutes.  
Can you imagine:  Numerous references to tables at the back of the book without
                  page references

                  4 year career increments (wonder where they got that idea)
                  that generate great characters like the cowardly Ranger who
                  was still a private after 16 years in the army.

                  Complicated character generation worksheet with spaces too
                  small to write in, and covering most, but not *all* things
                  that you need to track.

                  Hit points that allow an average character to take at least
                  4 shots from a .44 magnum pistol in the chest and another 1-2
                  shots in the head without being more than "slightly wounded",
                  which has little game effect.

                  College educations which do not increase your education 
                  statistic, so that if you don't have enough education at the
                  age of 17, you'll never make it to grad school.

Ugh.  If I am reading the book correctly, the average unarmed fighter would
have to kick the average character in the head 11 times to render him 
unconscious.

I don't know about anyone else, but this is massively inconsistent with the
"realistic, gritty" flavor the game seems to be attempting to produce.  The
typical character would only be slightly wounded by a hit in the chest from
a .50cal machine gun.

I have no intention of buying any further 2nd Ed Twilight:2000 products.

Rob Dean

(For anyone thinking about it, don't forget that GDWs two new rpg's,
Cadillacs and Dinosaurs (??) and Dark Conspiracy, will be based on the Twilight
2000 mechanics.)


-------- TML Message #1964 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1964
Date:     Fri, 7 Dec 90 14:16:22 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  GDW Blues, Part II

Forgot to check something.  The Twiglight:2000 character system, as near
as I can tell, produces a character with a minimum age of 25, and an average
age of 35, which doesn't look like a good simulation of military survivors
at the end of a 3-4 year general war to me.

Rob


-------- TML Message #1965 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1965
Date:     Fri, 7 Dec 90 14:38:10 EST
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Implementation TL

I wonder if anyone else out there has any thoughts on a matter which has been
of some concern to me when it comes to handling tech levels.  

Should we give some thought to what the lowest tech level should be that could
implement a technology if they didn't have to discover it?  Many of the low
tech worlds in the Imperium and its near neighbors are either deliberately
\limiting technology, or recovering from disasters of one sort or another, right?

I am tending at the moment to think of TLs as being primarily limits on material
technology.  As a couple of examples--there is no real reason why someone armed
with the proper knowledge could not build a hot air ballon or a man-carrying
glider of some sort in Ancient Greece.  Some applications of gunpowder would
be possible at that level, too, although cannons might not be (I don't recall
whether the Greeks could cast bronze in large quantities).  CPR, a valuable
medical technique, requires no equipment, and could be used by someone in 
a stone-age situation even though it wasn't developed until sometime in TL7
the way the game calculates things.  (Of course, without a hospital and rescue 
squad it might not be quite as valuable...).  The first patent on a hovercraft
was granted in something ridiculous like 1879...power to weight considerations
were the main reason it probably couldn't have been built.

(Speaking of hovercraft...I happended to look up stats on the Navy's LCAC
air cushion landing craft today.  With 10MW worth of engines, it can lift
150 tons, and still amke 50kts--80 or so kph...in MT 10MW will lift 100
tons with nothing left over for thrust)

Anyway...some of the spiffy high tech things might be available at substantially
lower tech levels in a rather clunky form.

Rob


-------- TML Message #1966 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1966
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 90 15:33:48 -0500
Subject: DEsigns from Scott Kellogg 12/8/90
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.UU.NET (Stephen D Smith)


*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Fast Cutter TL 15 "Sparrow" Class 
 
CraftID:  Fast Cutter Type YF, TL 15, MCr 37.22122 
Hull:     (45/113) Disp=50, Config=1AF, Armor=40G, Unload=587.303,
          Load=845.711 
Power:    (5/10) 1261.37 Mw Fusion, Dur=10 days @ reduced power 
          (Agility=0) 5 days @ full power. 
Loco:     (8/16), Manuver=6G, Agility=6 NOE=190, Cruise=2835kph,
          Top=3780kph 
Commo:    Radio=System*2, Maser=System*2, RadioJam=System 
Sensors:  EMM, A-EMS=FarOrb, P-EMS=Interstel, EMS-Jam=FarOrb, 
          Densitometer=250m, Neutrino=10kw 
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout, 
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout, 
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Form 
Off:      HPoints=1 
          Missile=x02 SCaster=x03 
          Batt        1                 1 
          Bear        1                 1 
          Missile and Sand Caster share turret 
Def:      DefDM=+10 
Control:  Computer=2*3, HoloHUD*2, HoloLink*2, 
Accom:    Crew=1, Seat=Roomy*33, Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend
          is, Inertial Comp, Grav Plate, Air Lock 
Other:    Cargo=253.68, Missile rack Magazine=.7Kl, Battery Rnd=1
          missile, carries 10 BattRnds, Fuel=60.55Kl ObjSize=Sm,
          EMlevel=Mod (None @ reduced Power) 
 
Remarks:  The 'Sparrow' class cutter is designed for use as an 
auxillury by warships.  Quick transport with a large cargo 
capacity, it is often found shuttleing bettween ships in Imperial
fleets. 
 
Scott Kellogg 
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1967 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1967
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 90 23:36:33 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!tnc!m0068@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Designs from Scott Kellogg 12/9/90

From: m0068@tnc.UUCP (Stephen D Smith)
Organization: personal mailbox at The Next Challenge
 
*********************************************************
I have no access to e-mail so you will not be able to 
reach me very easily and there will be long gaps between
my having access to any comments to any designs or ideas
you might have but I would appreciate it
 
      Scott Kellogg      (703)-836-8352
      1202 S. Washington St. #107
      Alexandria, VA, 22314
*********************************************************
 
Heavy Fighter TL 15 "Talon" Class
 
CraftID:  Heavy Fighter Type HF, TL 15, MCr 194.6841
Hull:     (45/113) Disp=50, Config=1AF, Armor=70G, Unload=2414.314,
          Load=2459.23+external load if any
Power:    (14/28) 3534.48 Mw Fusion, Dur=30 days @ reduced power
          (no laser, Agility=0) 5 days @ full power.
Loco:     (8/16), Manuver=6G, Agility=6 NOE=190, Cruise=2835kph,
          Top=3780kph
Commo:    Radio=System*2, Maser=System*2, RadioJam=System
Sensors:  EMM, A-EMS=FarOrb, P-EMS=Interstel, EMS-Jam=FarOrb,
          Densitometer=250m, Neutrino=10kw
          ActObjScn=Rout          ActObjPin=Rout,
          PasObjScn=Rout          PasObjPin=Rout,
          PasEnScn=Simp           PasEnPin=Form
Off:      Turret HPoints=1
          PLaser=x02  Missile=x02 SCaster=x03
          Batt        1                 1                 1
          Bear        1                 1                 1
          PLaser, Missile, Sand Caster all share turret
          Aircraft Fusilage Hardpoints*5 (Missile=x07)
          Internal bomb bay for 23 tons ordanance.
Def:      DefDM=+17
Control:  Computer=9*3, HoloHUD*2, HoloLink*2,
Accom:    Crew=2, Seat=Roomy*2, Env=Basic Env, Basic is, Extend is,
          Inertial Comp, Grav Plate, Air Lock
Other:    Cargo=23.3, Missile rack Magazine=9.7Kl, Battery Rnd=1
          missile, carries 100 Rnds internal. Fuel=212.07Kl
          ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Mod (None @ reduced Power)
 
Remarks:  The 'Talon' class fighter is commonly carried aboard
heavy carriers and other naval vessels.  Occasionally, a ship which
does not ordinarily carry fighters will substitute a 'Talon' for
one of its launches.  The class was designed late in the Fifth
Frontier War after the 'Viper' class escort fighter was deployed
and represents yet another triumph for Naval Architect Dr. Hloch
(The Traveller's Kelly Johnson).  It saw limited action in the war
but distinguished itself in the final battle of Calit{Spinward
Marches 1515} when elements of the Imperial 23rd fleet ambushed and
severely mauled the retreating Zhodani 40th Fleet after their
defeated thrust for Rhylanor{Spinward Marches 2716}.
 
    The 'Talon' has a 23 ton bomb bay installed.  This is usually
empty as are the 5 hardpoints for external ordanance.  Though
unpressureized, the bay, when used is more often used for cargo
when it can carry 23.3Kl.  Alternately, it fuctions as the
fighter's air lock.
 
    The 5 fusilage hardpoints are almost always left empty but can
mount multiple missile racks to carry up to thirty anti-ship
missiles externally.  These racks are then fired off in a manner
similar to the 'Viper' and the 'Indianapolis' fighters in one large
volley as a factor 7 missile battery.
 
Scott Kellogg
 
    via  Stephen D Smith   USENET: m0068@tnc.UUCP
                           BIX: sdsmith
- - --Name = STEPHEN SMITH  Mailbox # = 68

-------- TML Message #1968 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1968
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 00:01 EDT
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: (1959) Beyond and TL17 worlds


The Beyond and Vanguard Reaches were punted over four years ago, being
as they were horrendously technologically overpowered. The only TL17 world
in existence as of now is the world of Sabmiqys, whose denizens are sentient
robots that make a habit of dissecting visitors to see how they work. (A
recent issue of CHALLENGE had an article on them: disappointingly boring.)

metlay

-------- TML Message #1969 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1969
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 9:29:33 GMT
From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: TML vehicle design -> TeX translator

	I've written a small C program that takes TML postings and
churns out LaTeX macros for formatting the vehicle designs. They look
quite nice. Unfortunately Scott Kellog puts his descriptions after the
stats which make them impossible to parse but it processes rsdean's with
no problems. When run on my own archives it reaches some 50 pages in
length! Anyone interested please mail me.

	This brings up another idea. Although useful as a reference I find
copious posings of vehicles to the list annoying. What I think would be
a good idea is to have a central repository much like the reputed net-spellbook
for rec.arts.frp. I'd run it but I have to dial in to the UNIX system I use
and couldn't manage it. Any volunteers?

				Jo Jaquinta
				lgrant@maths.tcd.ie

-------- TML Message #1970 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 1970
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 08:16:53 -0500
From: al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (T. L. Hayes)
Subject: Heavenly Bodies!




From: Orcinus orca <jokim@jarthur.Claremont.edu>
John H. Kim says:

>If you're only interested in an occasional eclipse or two,
>it's a great idea.  The impression I got from the original
>letter (I don't save these for much more than a day so I
>can't check) was that he wanted to know what the night sky
>would look like given a certain time and place.  If you use
>T. L. Hayes's simplification for this, you get the boring
>(in my opinion) result of all the planets/moons/suns lined
>up in one line in the sky.  I like to imagine the view at
>Regina as something like the Saturn mosaic JPL released,
>with a moon here and there.  I suppose you could fake it.

On the contrary, Kepler's law does not restrict you from having the planets/
moons inclined to the plane of the orbit of the primary body.  I suggested
it as a simple way to tell where along an orbit the object would lie without
going through detailed astro-mechanical calculations.  A little trig and
knowledge of the inclination would easily allow you to determine the angle
above or below the ecliptic (reference the main planet).  All this assumes 
you really want this much detail but you don't want to spend a lot of time
doing detailed calculations.  To generate a "sky view" simply determine
where all the objects (visible ones) are along their orbits then assuming
you know or have set the angle of inclination and the nodes you can easily
determine the apparent asimuth and elevation of the object of interest.

What you do need to do is make a lot of simplifying assumptions like all the
orbits are circles (so you can tell from the period where along the orbit
the planet is) and none of the orbits (nodes) precess otherwise you may as
well go back to the full calculations using orbital elements.

From: chk@alias (C. Harald Koch)

>> I personally would not like to have my main asteroid defense be how thick
>> my hull was, because there's eventually a bigger asteroid out there with
>> your name on it!
>
>I agree, you still need an active defense system of some sort. However, no
>matter how sophisticated your sensors are, there will be space dust smaller
>than they can detect. There is also a size below which there is no point
>trying to destroy incoming objects because they are too hard to hit.

Perhaps we should install (or assume these are already installed?) a
navigational deflector (like the Enterprise has) based on repulsor technology.
All it does is project a beam of repulsive force (how does it do this I
wonder) in the direction of motion and "sweep" back and forth clearing a
path through the MICRO-meteroids/asteroids.  It would have little effect on
anything of any real size (to prevent if from being used as an extra weapon)
but then things that big are a) rare and b) easy (relatively) to avoid.

TLH

- - --
T.L.Hayes                  |
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory     |
Lexington, MA              |

-------- End of TML Messages --------

